I thought you were taking some time off. But 'here you go again' opining about the Old and the New. Why even go there....the faithful be it in god or trump are deaf.
No I'm on for Monday, reporting for work. Have never written about the Bible before, here or anywhere else, so the "here you go again" comment is 110% bizarre. As for not engaging the topic since many are locked into pre-existing world views, that's sort of an argument for never writing a polemic at all, no?
After years of seeking and reading and reflecting; it was when I heard a song by Iris DeMent that I finally found peace. That song is titled “Let the Mystery Be.” It is abundantly clear to me that as far as Christianity is concerned, man created God in our image, not the other way around. Christians took the line in Genesis about being given “Dominion,” ran with it, and here we are, headed for extinction. Blowback is a bitch, Karmic retribution well earned.
"None of what I have written above should be taken to mean that I believe in mocking and shaming people for religious beliefs."
I'm afraid your essay did just that. You said nothing about the positive aspects of Christianity such as its role in the Civil Rights Movement or Liberation theology movements in Latin America and Palestine. We must respect religious beliefs if we are going to organize the working class in the US. Otherwise your audience will be a narrow sector of intellectuals with no working class base. I suggest we try to move fundamentalists towards a more inclusive and tolerant religion. BTW your analysis of fascism is spot on.
Working class, working class, working class. 😂 Ever work in a factory/mill/cannery? I sure af have. Please. No comrade, elevate yourself beyond tailing after other folks' religiosity, proletarian and otherwise. I'm not against religious people. In the meantime, in 2023 I recommend less religious class truth and more scientific socialism in the interest of all humanity rising up against capitalism-imperialism...the system that gives rise to the fascism you think I got right.
The other thing is your stance on "the working class" and your repeated invocation of it. That to me is old white guy dinosaur talk from, like the ...1970s, the last gasps of a coherent industrial proletariat, when New Lefties were going into the factories and mills (before those workplaces largely disappeared due to imperial globalization and automation). I find that people who ritually invoke "the working class" have typically spent little to no time in and around it and tend to reify it --- like there is this big single phenomenon out there called "the" working class." They often foolishly and I mean foolishly think that their holy refiied proletariat is somehow endowed with special insight on the depradations and madness of capital and even that it is somehow predestined to be a revolutionary class. And they often foolishly and I mean foolishly engage in endless tailing of "the" working class instead of helping spark and lead it on the path becoming "tribunes of the people" (Lenin) --- all the people --- in the struggle of humanity against exterminist capitalism-imperialism. Of course the overcoming of the proletaeriat's subordinate position would be a revolution. If you want to know where I'm coming from read this --- (it's not a quick read but it's worth the investment): http://demarcations-journal.org/issue04/ajith_a_portrait_of_the_residue_of_the_past.pdf
You confuse a critical perspective on religion with mocking the religious. I say at the end that religion comes from somwhere deep and elemental in human beings and that is something that it is very powerefully socialized into people from a young age. I note the parts of the New Testament that have been aligned with popular movements. I say that I have long liked many left religious folks and worked with them, of course. But I don't doubt for a second that religious thinking is also a limit in the CRM and in Latin American Liberation Theology and in other movements. Not revolutionary on the scale required - not close. And the belief in God and related aspect of magical thinking is part of that. In any event, the science is clear as day that we desperately need to radically replace capitalism with revolutionary eco-socialism pronto.
Thanks Paul for your response to my comment. Yes I am an old white guy and used the term working class so maybe I will take your advice and use proletariat as you do instead. I want to say it is hard for someone who's never experienced religious faith to understand it and you are right about your criticism of the Bible. We do have to pick and choose and take what fits for us in any text like any Marxist or philosopher does also. What I want to call attention to is the tone of your essay which rules out any good that can come from religious movements. I think most historians would agree that there would be no Civil Rights Movement without the Black church which was Central as an organizing hub. If you study carefully the revolutionary movements in El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Guatemala you will see that the base communities of Christians formed the backbone of these movements. The best example of combined Christian and revolutionary thinking can be found in Oscar Romero's writings which are included in the volume "The Violence of Love". I have worked alongside many people who call themselves atheist in activist movements and have the utmost respect for them and their beliefs. The two biggest people of colors sectors in the US today which are Black and Latine are thoroughly religious populations in the majority and I see no evidence of them abandoning their religions. In order to radically replace capitalism with revolutionary ecosocialism we're going to have to organize them without trying to change their beliefs. Therefore I don't think the binary of Scientific Socialism versus religion is going to work. The best we can do is to encourage Progressive forms of religion such as Liberation theology movements and inclusive and tolerant expressions of religions which can be found in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Unfortunately the CIA wiped out Progressive Catholisim and Liberation theology movements by funding and encouraging fundamentalism and Evangelical movements to replace the radical Catholicism such as expressed by Romero. I hope for a Revival of progressive religion in the US that would make people open to building a more just and egalitarian society such as happened with the social gospel movement in the early 1900s which worked at stopping child labor, opposing ww1, and calling for support for labor movements among other Progressive actions. I say this with the intention of challenging you to talk about religion in a different tone. I have read a lot of your columns in counterpunch and find your political analysis very sharp. Solidarity and anti-fascism compa!
And a pretty much and excellent answer for my question/July 5th!
I thought you were taking some time off. But 'here you go again' opining about the Old and the New. Why even go there....the faithful be it in god or trump are deaf.
Cheers
No I'm on for Monday, reporting for work. Have never written about the Bible before, here or anywhere else, so the "here you go again" comment is 110% bizarre. As for not engaging the topic since many are locked into pre-existing world views, that's sort of an argument for never writing a polemic at all, no?
After years of seeking and reading and reflecting; it was when I heard a song by Iris DeMent that I finally found peace. That song is titled “Let the Mystery Be.” It is abundantly clear to me that as far as Christianity is concerned, man created God in our image, not the other way around. Christians took the line in Genesis about being given “Dominion,” ran with it, and here we are, headed for extinction. Blowback is a bitch, Karmic retribution well earned.
Does that include never taking about the Christian right.
Don't think so
Cheers
"None of what I have written above should be taken to mean that I believe in mocking and shaming people for religious beliefs."
I'm afraid your essay did just that. You said nothing about the positive aspects of Christianity such as its role in the Civil Rights Movement or Liberation theology movements in Latin America and Palestine. We must respect religious beliefs if we are going to organize the working class in the US. Otherwise your audience will be a narrow sector of intellectuals with no working class base. I suggest we try to move fundamentalists towards a more inclusive and tolerant religion. BTW your analysis of fascism is spot on.
Working class, working class, working class. 😂 Ever work in a factory/mill/cannery? I sure af have. Please. No comrade, elevate yourself beyond tailing after other folks' religiosity, proletarian and otherwise. I'm not against religious people. In the meantime, in 2023 I recommend less religious class truth and more scientific socialism in the interest of all humanity rising up against capitalism-imperialism...the system that gives rise to the fascism you think I got right.
The other thing is your stance on "the working class" and your repeated invocation of it. That to me is old white guy dinosaur talk from, like the ...1970s, the last gasps of a coherent industrial proletariat, when New Lefties were going into the factories and mills (before those workplaces largely disappeared due to imperial globalization and automation). I find that people who ritually invoke "the working class" have typically spent little to no time in and around it and tend to reify it --- like there is this big single phenomenon out there called "the" working class." They often foolishly and I mean foolishly think that their holy refiied proletariat is somehow endowed with special insight on the depradations and madness of capital and even that it is somehow predestined to be a revolutionary class. And they often foolishly and I mean foolishly engage in endless tailing of "the" working class instead of helping spark and lead it on the path becoming "tribunes of the people" (Lenin) --- all the people --- in the struggle of humanity against exterminist capitalism-imperialism. Of course the overcoming of the proletaeriat's subordinate position would be a revolution. If you want to know where I'm coming from read this --- (it's not a quick read but it's worth the investment): http://demarcations-journal.org/issue04/ajith_a_portrait_of_the_residue_of_the_past.pdf
You confuse a critical perspective on religion with mocking the religious. I say at the end that religion comes from somwhere deep and elemental in human beings and that is something that it is very powerefully socialized into people from a young age. I note the parts of the New Testament that have been aligned with popular movements. I say that I have long liked many left religious folks and worked with them, of course. But I don't doubt for a second that religious thinking is also a limit in the CRM and in Latin American Liberation Theology and in other movements. Not revolutionary on the scale required - not close. And the belief in God and related aspect of magical thinking is part of that. In any event, the science is clear as day that we desperately need to radically replace capitalism with revolutionary eco-socialism pronto.
Thanks Paul for your response to my comment. Yes I am an old white guy and used the term working class so maybe I will take your advice and use proletariat as you do instead. I want to say it is hard for someone who's never experienced religious faith to understand it and you are right about your criticism of the Bible. We do have to pick and choose and take what fits for us in any text like any Marxist or philosopher does also. What I want to call attention to is the tone of your essay which rules out any good that can come from religious movements. I think most historians would agree that there would be no Civil Rights Movement without the Black church which was Central as an organizing hub. If you study carefully the revolutionary movements in El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Guatemala you will see that the base communities of Christians formed the backbone of these movements. The best example of combined Christian and revolutionary thinking can be found in Oscar Romero's writings which are included in the volume "The Violence of Love". I have worked alongside many people who call themselves atheist in activist movements and have the utmost respect for them and their beliefs. The two biggest people of colors sectors in the US today which are Black and Latine are thoroughly religious populations in the majority and I see no evidence of them abandoning their religions. In order to radically replace capitalism with revolutionary ecosocialism we're going to have to organize them without trying to change their beliefs. Therefore I don't think the binary of Scientific Socialism versus religion is going to work. The best we can do is to encourage Progressive forms of religion such as Liberation theology movements and inclusive and tolerant expressions of religions which can be found in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Unfortunately the CIA wiped out Progressive Catholisim and Liberation theology movements by funding and encouraging fundamentalism and Evangelical movements to replace the radical Catholicism such as expressed by Romero. I hope for a Revival of progressive religion in the US that would make people open to building a more just and egalitarian society such as happened with the social gospel movement in the early 1900s which worked at stopping child labor, opposing ww1, and calling for support for labor movements among other Progressive actions. I say this with the intention of challenging you to talk about religion in a different tone. I have read a lot of your columns in counterpunch and find your political analysis very sharp. Solidarity and anti-fascism compa!
I better read that. Such an interesting writer and personality, Twain.